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Re: American dialect of Brithenig
- To: Sally Caves <email@example.com>
- Subject: Re: American dialect of Brithenig
- From: Padraic Brown <firstname.lastname@example.org>
- Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 13:34:30 -0400 (EDT)
- cc: andrew <email@example.com>, John Cowan <firstname.lastname@example.org>, email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org
- In-Reply-To: <37A484C8.C84A3DE4@frontiernet.net>
On Sun, 1 Aug 1999, Sally Caves wrote:
> Hahahahahahaha! ROFL! Yikes, I didn't get this far in the Grammar!
> This is wonderful! "The Rescue of Soldier Ryan." Hee hee hee...
> okay, "The Witches of L'Ancrea" must be "The Witches of Eastwick,"
> and "An Eidolonic Endangerment"... I'm sure we can all guess what
> that means, once we refresh our knowledge of _eidolon_ from any
> dictionary. Good show, Patrick!!! I'm blown away! My comments
> are loooooong:
Eidolon was a serendipitous find if ever there was one. "Blown Away" was
a moving picture in yet a different universe. :) "The Witches of
L'Ancrea" is a personal in-joke. Andrew ought to be able to puzzle it;
as we're both familiar with the author in question. It _was_ influenced
by "Witches of Eastwick", though.
> > Obviously the World *there* can not
> > be precisely the same as the World *here*. Technology is somewhere
> Have you read (of course) William Gibson's _The Difference Engine_?
> Do you conceive of New Caerleon as being a kind of nineteenth century
> in the twentieth century? Or perhaps the twenties or thirties in the
> nineties? What do the people of that America envision for the third
I have not read it. I think the "Industrial World" is more likely
somewhere in the 1950s to 1970s, and probably not to the same magnitude
*there* as it is *here*. Likely, aspects of the 19th century lasted longer
than *here*. Third millenium? Dunno!
I'm going to preface the following with my own assumptions (any or all of
which can be dashed about by wiser heads); which I would apply to any
alternate history without a USA and which purports to be "modern". I don't
consider myself a rampant Patriot, nor an excessively Merico-centric
person; but I do believe that the USA has played a very large (perhaps too
large) role in recent decades. First of all, *here* we are a country,
independant of all others, and (especially in the last century) seemed to
have developped a "blow the rest of the world" attitude, with overtones
of superiority and imperialism. [The League seems to be a glorified
Canada, with a kind of transatlantic umbillicus attached to the FK.] We
are a big country, with a lot of room to play in; and we don't mind
punching our neighbours in the knackers to get what we want (e.g., most of
our territory). [The League certainly consists of land west to the Mighty
Mississip (and north to (?)); but the West seems a bit iffy: there's still
Mexico to deal with, and without Manifest Destiny and Sea to Bloody Sea
and all that, I don't think the League would go after someone else's
goodies with the US's reckless abandon.] We are a hodge podge of races,
creeds and cultures (whether we like it or not), all of which were thrown
together with the above ideals all in the middle of a time of swift
technological advance. [The League is a hodge podge of the same cultures
and creeds one finds in the Old Country, i.e., British.] In this century,
we've meddled in the affairs of others (namely WWI & WWII), in which our
enemies were utterly broken and which we built up again. Technology took
off after this second war (largely at our instigation), because of our
large, unaffected by war population that wanted stuff. In those days, it
was radios, a house in the burbs, two cars in the garage, a chicken in the
pot and a pie in the sky. This wanting of "stuff" never ceased, and yet
ceases not: we tend to have driven the technological push at a most
energetic rate. [I don't think the "Great Wars" of *there* are the same as
WWI and WWII *here*. They're probably not much more than an extension of
the General European War that's been going on since the 7th century or so.
(Has Europe ever had a peaceful century?) My sources for WW what-ifs are
the two alternate history lists on the net. The concensus seems to be
that if the US keeps away from the 20th century chapter of Eurowar,
Germany might very well fight to a draw (if not win) WWI (thus no
Versailles, no reparations, no utter devastation of German economy, no
rise of Hitler, no WWII). That being the case, Hitler and WWII as we know
and love it can never be. *There*, the second Great War of the century
must be rather different; and who knows who the players are and where it's
fought? Must the FK even get involved?]
*There*, there is no USA (as coarsely described above). I'm not saying
that technology _can not_ advance, not that there _can not_ be a sexual
revolution or whatever else; only that they must evolve differently and
with different social impetus. And that the rise of these events must use
a different curve. In my never be humble opinion, in essence, No USA =
Very Different World.
For example, the previously cited short story suggests that the Germans
came up with the Bomb. Same tech as *here*, different path of invention.
> > My guess is that technology *there* ranges from 10 to 80 years behind
> > *here*.
The number varies depending on the tech in question. Almost anything
haveing to do with heavy-duty *here*like computers must be nonexistant or
grossly impractical *there*.
> > Basically think of *here* without the contribution of the USA (with all
> > its associated problems and triumphs);
> Exactly. But what about the contribution of Japan? Or is Japan still
> in the eighteenth century?
There was no USA to destroy 1940s Japan and then build it up into the
great country it is now (in Our Image ;) ). There was no USA to start
Japan into industrialisation, if that's even right. Whether Japan
modernises or not in the late 19th century, there is no USA for it to
fight against in the 40s: even if the League holds California (not a sure
thing), it would have no reason to even try for Hawaii or the Philippines.
The northern and middle Pacific would be Japan's playground.
> > but some slack of which is taken up
> > by other countries, most notably the FK and Germany.
> > entertainment is found in pubs and house
> > parties; and where (if you can get one into a place) a motorcar would be
> > The Thing to See -- and where people would dress up in Sunday Best and
> > pay sixpence to ride in it.
> Okay... here is my BURNING question... have you given a thought to how
> people would be dressed in this alternate America? I wonder if fashion
> and technology go along together (they seem to: all those bustles and
> steam engine comparisons), or at least "leisure" or "pace" and fashion.
> If this
> is an alternate America with a less developed technology and you were to
> take a picture of downtown New Caerleon, what would the people be
> (Definitely a woman's question... definitely a Sally Caves question, who
> likes to draw cities and people in strange dress). I suppose, too, that
> there would be few if any black faces in New Caerleon.
I didn't bring this (black issue) up in an earlier posting, because I know
nothing of 19th century British attitudes towards slavery *here* (I think
it was outlawed); though Andrew has stated that there is no slavery in
Kemr. This didn't stop the Colonies and USA *here* from utilising slavery.
My hope is that slavery would never be an issue *there*. New Caerleon, in
this case, would be white-bread with whole-wheat overtones. 8-D No reason
to assume that folks from other parts of the Empire wouldn't move to the
League, as they do to Kemr and England themselves. Kemr is a nice mix of
Natives, Gypsies, Spaniards, Indians (India), probably Amerindians, and
probably Pacific Islanders. One would guess that the League would have a
similar admixture, though with more Amerinds, Latinos and Cajuns. One
source of blacks might actually be Louisiana, as the French colonies (as
well as Spanish colonies) had black slavery. They'd certainly be rarer
than *here*. Whew! I've managed to salvage Dixiland Jazz! Unfortuately,
little or nothing in the way of spirituals, no blues, no R&B, no rock and
roll. On the other hand, no heavy metal, no rap. :) The fusion of Zydeco
and Kemrese pipes could be interesting...
Standard business common to formal dress in Kemr, and presumably in the
League for men is a kind of suit. No details known, but probably cut
along the lines of 1940s Britain. Most women probably wear some kind of
dress, with whatever feminine things pertain thereto. I suppose kilts
must be rather more common *there*, perhaps reaching to nonScots youth as
a kind of fad. Laborers wear a kind of shirt and breeks. All of these
will vary as to locality and tradition. It's been noted that in court,
the tradition of wearing a toga is maintained. Priests (especially in
traditional areas) wear cassocks; others get lumped with breeks, no grey
or blue shirts, though, except in less traditional places.
The Kernow tend towards tunic like shirts with decorated cuffs and hems.
These are not tucked into the breeks. A kind of longish coat or jacket
can be worn over this. The coat and breeks tend towards "colourful" for
Church and Fair, less so for everyday wear. Certain rich men in Kernow
(particularly Scottish natives) and dirt poor men out in the West share a
kind of kilt: one out of national pride, the other out of utility (a pair
of breeks wears out in the seat within a year; a kilt can be rotated and
turned about to last at least four times as long. Well, that's the Scot
in me!). Even so, poor folks always seem to have something gay and unworn
to wear when "goin' about". Also keeping in mind that a toga is a kilt
wrapped about differently, so that'll do for court (also the Scot in me.)
One day I'll try and make a few sketches.
> A million other questions, but these will have to do for now. You see,
> I'm interested, eventually, in teaching a course on time travel and
> history, and you've got a fabulous thing going here, all of you.
Keep asking! Keeps the list interesting.
> has done some linguistic research, apparent in a few phrases he tries
> his hand at in PIE, but my impression was that he assumes that the stuff
> with the asterisks was written in stone.
Neat story snipped. Tallarian (a conlang of mine) assumes the same. ;)
> SALLY CAVES
> http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves (bragpage)
> http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/teonaht.html (T. homepage)
> http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/contents.html (all else)
> Niffodyr tweluenrem lis teuim an.
> "The gods have retractible claws."
> from _The Gospel of Bastet_