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Re: Rromei-Geldyghei lyngvei (Roman-Celtic langs)
On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Padraic Brown wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Frank George Valoczy wrote:
> > >
> > > Welcome from one of the other RomanoCeltic conlangers here! Andrew
> > > Smith's Britheig and (my) Kernu, a Brithenig dialect, have consonant
> > > mutation of various sorts. We haven't yet entirely worked out where the
> > > Brithenig stress should fall, but word final seems a likely contender.
> > > Your language looks pretty neat! Tell us Celticonlangers more about it!
> > > Perhaps we could share ideas, experiences and the like.
> > Thanks! Re consonant mutation, my main thing is that I want to make it
> > different from Breton, but I want to keep it Celtic.
> > I kept the Breton stress pattern (next from last syllable) in Brzhonegh,
> > partly because it's simpler than random stress (as in my Slavic lang,
> > Vranian).
> It might be difficult to have different "kinds" of mutation than the
> Celtic languages (eg., Breton), but Brzhonegh could certainly find new and
> dastardly places for the mutations to happen. ;^)
Snip Mutation stuff...
That's something I'll have to explore; it does add interest, much like
consonant gradation in Finnic.
> Brithenig and Kernu have Indicative, Subjunctive, Imperative, Conditional
> and Infinitive for moods. Kernu is a bit more conservative (and a bit
> more Celtic) with its verbal terminations, as you could see above. Kernu
> retains the -b- future of the 1st conjugation, the -s- perfect from
> several places, the -b- imperfect (though mutated to -v-), a few
> reduplicative verbs and a few -r passives.
Verbwise I haven't done very much; I've only roughly sketched out present
indicative (Latin forms).
> Our pronouns seem to be mostly, if not entirely, Latin. Kernu, at least,
> has accentuated and unaccentuated forms of the pronouns for emphasis.
1ps 2 3m 3f 3n 1pl 2 3
Nom me te en dhi dhu nw ghvw wnt
Acc am azh dhen dhel dhen dhol ogh o
Gen am azh dhen dhol dhen dhol ogh o
Dat va dha egh esh egh dhon ogh o
Abl va dha egh esh egh dhon ogh o
Loc am azh dhen dhol dhen dhol ogh o
Interrogative pronouns are /bwv/ "who (sg.)", /bws/ "who (pl.)", /brzh/
"what (sg.)", /brzhws/ "what (pl.)", /bwrw/ "which one" and /bzwrr/
> > I haven't decided what to do with adjectives yet; Both Breton and Latin
> > adjectives agree with the noun; but I'm bored with that from Vranian and
> > Neo-Dalmatian; undeclining adjectives like Finnish and Hungarian are
> > intrinsically boring too. Suggestions?
> Well, you may certainly do with your adjectives as you see fit. :-) If
> you're trying for a "likely" Romano-Celtic tongue (the overall goal of the
> Brithenig Bunch), then you most likely will settle for boring Neolatin
> adjectives. In Brithenig (and in Kernu), the adjectives of fem. nouns take
> the mutation of the noun. Kernu has a very few irregular adjectives that
> differentiate masculine from feminine: il varru beccos / la gwena becca.
Yes, you're probably right; I do want to keep it as "likely" as possible.
> > Numbers: I kept the Breton numbers, with a vigesimal system like French,
> > so I guess that'll make it base-20; 18 is "three sixes".
> I kept a number of Celtic forms, and judging from Andrew's Brithenig Page,
> he did as well. Brithenig seems to have some base 15 (?) forms, and also
> base 20:
> 15 kindig, 16 yn e ghindig, 17 dew e ghindig
> 20 gweint, 30 deg e weint, 40 dew weint
These are simply pemdhek/gvedhek/seidhek
but ugwd/trrenta/davgwd [2 20's]
> Kernu seems to retain a couple more of these base 15 forms, as well as
> many base twenty forms:
> 15 cyntheck, 16 yenicyntheck, 17 dawicyntheck, 18 trawicyntheck,
> 19 kyedwaricyntheck
> 20 wyghaint, 30 dechiwyghaint, 40 dawhwyghaint
> There are a few "irregularities" reminiscent of your "three sixes": 18
> traw-ys-sey; 27 traw-ys-naw; etc. None of which are "standard".
> > Breton has "inflecting prepositions". Do Brithenig and Kemru? I'm still
> > figuring those out, whether to include it or not; I'm leaning towards the
> > 'not'.
> As far as I know, Brithenig has lost these. Kernu has kept a few: in,
> de/di, do, a and co may all inflect. We call it Conjugated Prepositions:
> s. pl.
> 1. dom don
> 2. dos daw
> 3.m. da da
> 3.f. da da
> 3.n. dond da
> The first person of such forms causes nasalisation, as does the 3rd. masc.
> The 3rd fem. causes aspiration.
> By far, do and co are the most frequently used forms. Do is used with
> aver (to have/there is) to indicate possession, and the inflected do tells
> us who owns what: dom ay yn ngu (to me there is a dog); da ngu le me ay yn
> ngenamh (my dog has an old bone); com-wheni-ty comic (with me come [with
> me with]).
> Does Brzhonegh have them?
I haven't decided yet, but I'm thinking that as Brzhonegh has retained
quite a few Brezhoneg forms, I'll probably keep these as well.
> > Diplomatic Relations between Gemr, Komrow and Brzhona? =)
> A distinct possibility indeed, if the rumour buzzing around Sessiwn Kemres
> be true. ;^) By the way, Gemr and Komrow are the same thing, but in
> different dialects. Kemr is Cambria in Brithenig while Komrow is Kemr in
> Kernu. Anyway, it's all sorted out on the map! The Kemres speak
> Brithenig, and the Kernow speak Kernu.
Thanks for clearing that up.
> Also, if the Brzhona and the Kemr find themselves inhabiting the same
> universe, the Brzhona will find some very nice neighbours who speak
> Breotu, a dialect of Kernu spoken by Kernow colonists in Bretten Beq
> (Brittany) after the 11th century, or so. Legend has it that there may
> also be a few Armorican speakers (descended from 5th cen. Dumnonian
> Brythonic emmigrees, during the Ravagement of the Saxons) there as well,
> but no one seems to be able to confirm this.
Well that sounds very interesting. :)
> I expect we'd also have to figure out how the Brzhona came to be where
> they are and how.
Indeed. That's something I don't quite know yet.
Ferenc Gy. Valoczy
personal page: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/7482/
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-Oblast je morda nesimpaticna, a edina nesmrtne pot miru in stabilizacije.